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 Post subject: Re: Second account
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:46 pm 

Joined: Dec 12, 2008
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User avatarVaculus
Professor wrote:
I was not thinking of facebook games. I was thinking of other strategy games I have played in the past. More war like than business like games, and online of course, but not facebook.

I has also played a few and Simunomics is the only one that allows a 2nd account from the same person. The usual thing is that multiple accounts from the same IP address are allowed for separate people, and those accounts are allowed minimum or no interact.


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 Post subject: Re: Second account
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:27 pm 

Joined: Jan 30, 2012
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User avatarWanakai
 
Thanks for the info Prof.

I'm not sure how I feel about multi-accts in this game. And I do know that many online games do not allow it, although enforcement is spotty - at best.

But I also know of successful online games that do allow it. Even when it is obviously a benefit to the multi-acct user. Must be paid accts, of course. Eve is the first to come to mind. I personally have more than one paid account there and they are always 'working together' to magnify my efforts in that game. That game also has a way to 'pay' w/out needing RL cash if you do well enough. So, in my opinion, it is very similar to this one concerning this topic.


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 Post subject: Re: Second account
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:51 am 

Joined: Nov 6, 2009
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User avatarReal Value
 
Dennis wrote:
But I also know of successful online games that do allow it. Even when it is obviously a benefit to the multi-acct user. Must be paid accts, of course. Eve is the first to come to mind.


Yes, I played Eve for a while. It was one of several online games that made multiple accounts legal with some restrictions (mostly the restrictions are it costs cash to have multiple accounts in the game, or a lot of points or credits earned in the game to pay for the tickets or gold or credits or whatever it is that serves as currency in the game to allow payment to make the multiple accounts legal).

In Simunomics, the cost of an upgrade to a gold account, which is the minimum requirement for having multiple accounts, is $3.20 USD per month if you pay cash for tickets in bulk ($320 USD for 2000 tickets, which is 100 months of gold account upgrade). That is cheaper than the cost of many games that I have played which require a monthly fee to play. In Simunomics, you could legally have three accounts (assuming you had permission to do so) and have all be gold accounts for only $9.60 USD per month, which is quite a reasonable monthly fee for a fun to play game.

Even more useful is the fact that even modest sized accounts can earn enough profit per month to pay for the cost of buying tickets to upgrade, and while ticket prices do seem high to some players, with effective account management and profit optimization, even a manufacturer with a second account of 80 factories of 10k size can earn enough bucks in a week to pay for the gold upgrade for his second account for a month (at current ticket prices and using APCE or Professor price list for manufactured goods for selling products in bulk).

Since you can build 80 factories of 10k size in slightly over a week at 2x speed, this makes it fast and easy to make a second account focused on manufacturing and to be able to justify the costs involved in creating a second account given the high rate of return on investment of owning and operating small factories in a second production focused account.


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 Post subject: Re: Second account
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:15 pm 

Joined: Jul 18, 2011
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User avatarEscape Velocity
 
Vaculus wrote:
I has also played a few and Simunomics is the only one that allows a 2nd account from the same person. The usual thing is that multiple accounts from the same IP address are allowed for separate people, and those accounts are allowed minimum or no interact.


That's surprising since I have played many MMO games too and have had multiple accounts that were legal both free and premium account combinations depending on the game. Some games had a limit of 3 or 5 and for the most part I have been playing F2P too.

For Simunomics to allow with restrictions multiple accounts certainly doesnt sound strange to me; if we were absolutely limited to one account period per person this would be much more surprising imo.


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 Post subject: Re: Second account
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:54 pm 

Joined: Nov 6, 2009
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User avatarReal Value
 
Vaculus wrote:
The usual thing is that multiple accounts from the same IP address are allowed for separate people, and those accounts are allowed minimum or no interact.


This is certainly the case with some games, and it is okay when no interactions are allowed from the same IP address. However, as the game admins have pointed out, it is simply not realistically possible to determine in most cases if one person is playing more than one account and pretending to be two people. In one game that I play that has this rule (and for which Manufactura also plays as well in a second account for a second player on the same IP), I have been appointed to be a game admin now for the game and part of my job in the game is to try to detect cheaters in the game who are pretending to be two people but who are actually the same person. This is hard to do, but one of the best ways to prove that someone is using more than one account himself is to look at the pattern of logins and see if there is less than three seconds between one account login or action in the game and an action by another account in the game from the same computer with the same cookies. If the same computer is accessing both accounts within less than three seconds, it is nearly impossible for two people to switch users in a chair at the same computer in such a short period of time.

Unfortunately, even if you are almost certain one person is playing two accounts, it is not allowed to ban them unless you can find absolute proof that this is happening, but it is likely that it happens much more than can be proven. Eventually, however, people do make mistakes. They will send a message to someone with the wrong signature in the message (saying they are person two while on person one's account), or 1 or 2 second switching between accounts. A lot of players who do abuse the rules in that game do eventually get caught, and I personally try hard to catch and ban cheaters, as I feel that it is good for the game to enforce the rules of the game.

In this game, developers have made a different decision, which is they do not object to two accounts from the same person, as long as it is done with permission. I resisted opening a second account for a long time, in spite of clear evidence that others did have more than one account. Even my son had a second account long before I ever asked for permission to do so myself. The reasoning of developers as stated is they don't want to punish people for telling the truth about having a second (or even third) account and would prefer to make it legal and permitted, with permission, rather than rewarding people for lying about having fictional other players in the game.

If you feel a second account will help you, then all you have to do is ask and you can have one. However, I really don't think that a second account without much capital to build it up will be of much help to anyone in the game. And, if you do have capital to build up a second account, it might be better used building up a strong first account as a priority rather than building a second account and diluting focus from having at least one strong account in the game.

One of the earlier players to have a second account was Milkco/Foodaganza/GEC Corp. Milkco is a very nice young man, and has been a good supplier of various farm products to me for a long, long time. However, it certainly does not seem that he has done better in the game with two accounts than I was able to do with focusing on and building up one account. By the time I decided to open a second account, I had 100 stores of 150k to 200k sq ft in size, and I was one of the top ten players by score in the game. I also decided to immediately buy 6000 tickets and to sell them to get cash to fund the growth of my second account, as having a second account without having cash to fund growth for that account did not seem like an appealing prospect to me personally.

Does a second account help? Yes, I think it does help, but I think buying tickets is much more helpful in general and will make a much larger difference in the development of your business in the game than will simply having two accounts that are starved for capital instead of one.


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 Post subject: Re: Second account
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:50 pm 

Joined: Dec 12, 2008
Posts: 3558
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User avatarVaculus
Professor wrote:
This is certainly the case with some games, and it is okay when no interactions are allowed from the same IP address. However, as the game admins have pointed out, it is simply not realistically possible to determine in most cases if one person is playing more than one account and pretending to be two people.

There is a problem here. The devs let people to have a 2nd account because they can't find out the liars, but they actually end up allowing the liar to have 4 accounts. Even if someone had 10 accounts they wouldn't be so useful if they did not interact (not even the initial transfer of buildings) and they did not enter the same field of business. Even if someone makes a 2nd account to supply the 1st account of another player and vise versa, this is something that still requires cooperation between 2 different people, while having your 2nd account supplying your 1st one at fair prices or swapping buildings with each other or having both accounts entering the same field of business to secure dominance through volume, that's certainly an advantage.


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 Post subject: Re: Second account
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:50 am 

Joined: Feb 29, 2012
Posts: 45
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Indu Wares
m3tatron wrote:
yes, multi accounting IS LEGAL in this game, as I also specified. on the other hand I have never seen another game that allows this. and I am old enough in the game to know it never was an intended feature but rather it started as an exception from the rule and only to give the players the option to try out other business models than the main account. so no selling and buying between accounts or other collaboration. what I dont understand or agree with is how it got to the point when you can basically open an account (or several) for mass producing and then selling to the main account full of stores. how is that fair? well it isnt and I call it cheating

and if it is open for everyone that asks, why do we have to ask in the first place?

I want to ask the devs how long are they going to allow this multi accounting because they clearly abandoned policing it. or if they are really happy with how it works they should just remove the building slot limit so everybody be able to profit from it without the weird hassle of administering several accounts.


If account A has only stores, Account B has only factories, and Account A buys all Account B's products at a 'fair' market value how can that be wrong? Effectively if both accounts get equal (financial) benefit from this its nothing different than having a trade agreement in place with any other player (other than the fact that you don't have to worry about trust issues and you're second account would be 100% aligned with you in terms of growth strategy).

If account A bought the products from account B at Cost price it would be wrong, but if you think about it then, account B wouldn't be able to survive/grow at all because it wouldn't make profit.


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 Post subject: Re: Second account
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:14 pm 

Joined: Nov 6, 2009
Posts: 4948
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User avatarReal Value
 
Exactly. The idea that one account can be used as a sacrificial or feeder account to another does not make a lot of sense to me, as you would never be able to grow the second account and it would rapidly become too small to be useful in comparison with the primary account.

I suspect the more likely outcome is the primary account sacrifices growth to shift cash to the younger account so that it can grow faster. This could be done by paying very high prices for products or via transferring tickets.

Since manufacturer prices have been too low for too long, my own preference is to help anyone who is willing to make products for me to sell in stores by paying generous prices and by encouraging IMU to establish and enforce reasonably high wholesale prices for retail products that are sold to any retailer. I don't care if it is my son or a new player who I have never met. I'll pay the same IMU prices to anyone who wants to make and sell products to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Second account
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:31 am 

Joined: Apr 20, 2009
Posts: 302
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User avatarKrudd Kapitalism
 
Quote:
Effectively if both accounts get equal (financial) benefit from this its nothing different than having a trade agreement in place with any other player (other than the fact that you don't have to worry about trust issues and you're second account would be 100% aligned with you in terms of growth strategy).



A new player does not come into the game with the sole goal of helping out another account, they play for themselves, whereas a secound account that is setup so that it is "100% aligned with you in terms of growth strategy" does and is helping the first account cheat by skirting around both DMR and the maximum land slots problem.

I wish i kept the in game message from one of the developers over a year ago when second accounts started to multiply that agreed with me on this, because obviously they've changed their tune and they are probably seeing the short term dollar benefits of their new stance and the expense of the long term playability (and thus profitablity for them) of the game for the majority of people.

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 Post subject: Re: Second account
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:23 pm 

Joined: Nov 6, 2009
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User avatarReal Value
 
So, if a second account is helpful, and it is allowed (and thus is not cheating BY DEFINITION since it is officially permitted in full compliance with all game rules), then why not open a second account?

It seems to me that a position that you refuse to have a second account is no more logical than an determination not to use speed building or a policy not to ever change salary or an insistence that you won't train. If a legally permitted feature of the game is helpful, then use it. If you don't want to use it, fine, but it is not logical to then call something that is officially permitted by game admins "cheating", because it is clearly not cheating to have two accounts with approval.


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