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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:40 pm 
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I mentioned this in a few places privately so I wanted it to be out there publicly. Next month's event will be the stock market. Likely running the 5th through the 25th.

Our strategy thus far has been running / improving to work toward a full-time market. The last run was pretty good so we only needed a few more changes. Among them was turning on a little random trading "noise", something made to slightly obscure which stock moves are because of something the company did, which are from players buying and selling the stock, and which are due to unpredictability. (Not quite random, but it might seem that way.). Of course another way to look at this is that you can make a couple percentage points in a stock even if the company isn't growing, if you can figure out the right buy/sell prices.

That doesn't mean stock pricing is perfect or that we won't make changes after this or even after it's published. Only that we don't think there are any tricks to make 100x your money in a day, and that anything which seems like it would will get your account banned long before it takes effect anyway.

What most needs improvement is information shared. I know we discussed this last time, but we want to find a balance where we are giving enough information for you to judge the companies without feeling like we're giving away their secrets. (Especially since all companies are listed here. It isn't voluntary.). I think it's reasonable to give historic accounting ratios and forward utilization - what kinds of buildings are owned and their activity level. (Working/idle/expanding). So you can't get up in someone's business and tell what they're selling, but could tell if they are maybe pulling lower numbers because of construction.

If it goes well, the path to full-time will be based around creating CEO accounts and setting rules for dividends and ownership percentage.


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:49 pm 
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Oh yeah, we also need a better in-game explanation of how shares work with regard to tickets. If you followed on the forums you know it was a long process to arrive at a multi-step system that neither rewards nor punishes owners for using tickets. But I don't think anyone could figure that out from in-game information alone.


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 6:57 pm 

Joined: Jul 30, 2013
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User avatarRonak Holdings I
 
Amarsir wrote:
I mentioned this in a few places privately so I wanted it to be out there publicly. Next month's event will be the stock market. Likely running the 5th through the 25th.

Our strategy thus far has been running / improving to work toward a full-time market. The last run was pretty good so we only needed a few more changes. Among them was turning on a little random trading "noise", something made to slightly obscure which stock moves are because of something the company did, which are from players buying and selling the stock, and which are due to unpredictability. (Not quite random, but it might seem that way.). Of course another way to look at this is that you can make a couple percentage points in a stock even if the company isn't growing, if you can figure out the right buy/sell prices.

That doesn't mean stock pricing is perfect or that we won't make changes after this or even after it's published. Only that we don't think there are any tricks to make 100x your money in a day, and that anything which seems like it would will get your account banned long before it takes effect anyway.

What most needs improvement is information shared. I know we discussed this last time, but we want to find a balance where we are giving enough information for you to judge the companies without feeling like we're giving away their secrets. (Especially since all companies are listed here. It isn't voluntary.). I think it's reasonable to give historic accounting ratios and forward utilization - what kinds of buildings are owned and their activity level. (Working/idle/expanding). So you can't get up in someone's business and tell what they're selling, but could tell if they are maybe pulling lower numbers because of construction.

If it goes well, the path to full-time will be based around creating CEO accounts and setting rules for dividends and ownership percentage.



How about a forum index, where Companies/Group of Companies make announcements, and whensoever an announcement is made, the player gets a mail, with the link, so he can go and view the announcement?

The CEO shares what is safe to share, people interested in that group get info about what going on in the company that they are thinking to bet their money on.


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:22 pm 

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User avatarWorld Works International
 
A full time market? As a real life stock trader, I can't back that idea enough!

I'd love to see if you've been able to simulate the intricacies of supply & demand, price inflation, 'rumour' mill affects and so on, in that "noise" that you mention :)


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 2:25 pm 
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User avatarCommit to Excellence
Bellerive Chamber of Commerce
Upgraded the Stock Market listing to provide new information.

_________________
"Please let me make my own mistakes? 'cause I really like to learn stuff." --Wise words from Hillside Cottage

Please read the rules. Have information? Why not write a guide?


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 7:20 pm 

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User avatarRonak Holdings I
 
Perfect! With the stock market finally being active after June, (or so it seems), how about the loan/bond interest rates are actually affected by lending and borrowing? So, with good debt, someone might actually be able to make more money, and someone else might loose money. And a major part of which is dependent on borrowing and lending money


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:43 am 

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User avatarRonak Holdings I
 
A couple of changes prior to stock market event goes live, and then is integrated in-game.

1. Ticket sales are not considered towards stock price enhancement, but ticket purchases degrade the stocks.
2. Ticket sales are not counted in market sales.
3. The stock market listing right now is in default arrangement, by the company valuation. Change it so, we can arrange it alphabetically, or by stock prices (ASC&decs manner).
4. A new column which along with company mame, level, company value, stock price shows. That is %change, moving downwards, or upwards. The decreasing percentage shows in red, increasing percentage shows in green. Also the company name appears in colours accordingly.
5. Stock price history and the other bar graphs aren't shown side by side, but rather one below the other. The spread out version makes it more easier to point out prices and profits at certain times we want to see. The current relatively compressed version isn't suitable for aggressive monitoring of stock prices.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:23 pm 
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Read the stock section of Encyclopedia Simunomica for understanding of how tickets work.

We can do a sort by name. Adding a change column is not really plausible because historical information is stored separately. We can and do retrieve it individually on request, but preemptively getting it for every stock is computationally​ heavy at this time.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:46 pm 

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User avatarRonak Holdings I
 
Amarsir wrote:
Read the stock section of Encyclopedia Simunomica for understanding of how tickets work.

We can do a sort by name. Adding a change column is not really plausible because historical information is stored separately. We can and do retrieve it individually on request, but preemptively getting it for every stock is computationally​ heavy at this time.



Okay, that was really un-thoughtful of me. I was only suggesting a couple of options that I get when trading using some broker software/website.

Also, the company ranking by valuation seems to be broken, because at the bottom of the rankings, some companies are worth billions but placed below companies that are worth only millions.

Another point, a few companies have their valuation lower than the amount of money/cash they hold. How is this possible? Is it due to unpaid taxes/loans?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:56 am 
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ronak1996 wrote:
Okay, that was really un-thoughtful of me. I was only suggesting a couple of options that I get when trading using some broker software/website.

No they were all very thoughtful suggestions. They're just not functionally useful at our current every-company-is-listed status. When we get to a more final status all of these features will be in, as some back-end changes will be made for the transition.

Quote:
Also, the company ranking by valuation seems to be broken, because at the bottom of the rankings, some companies are worth billions but placed below companies that are worth only millions.

Yes, for a very similar answer. I'll actually fill in a bit of software design:

Data is stored by a database and handled by the code and processor. They each have their strengths, and if you ask one to do the other's job it can but with two problems: 1) lower efficiency, 2) the server is now doing the same thing two different ways. That second problem leads to bugs, as every time we make any minor change it has to be done twice, in two different ways.

Sorting data is best handled by the database. But doing math to figure out final valuation is best handled by the code. So in order to sort by valuation, whose job is it? We did a bit of a hack: the database does a rough sort based on a simple prediction of valuation. That means the sort is roughly in order, but not quite accurate.

Fortunately you've already given us the answer. In order to have custom sorts (by name) that should really be handled by a third entity: your browser. So we'll take the sort away from the database entirely (giving it less work is always good) and make it the final step. Win/win.

Quote:
Another point, a few companies have their valuation lower than the amount of money/cash they hold. How is this possible? Is it due to unpaid taxes/loans?

Short answer: time value of money.

Long answer: in the computer's estimation they aren't using it very well. A pile of cash doesn't earn a profit. You can invest it in bonds maybe, but that doesn't do much for your shareholders. A building can start turning out something valuable immediately. Cash needs to become a returning asset first, which means you won't get paid until further in the future. This happens in the real world as well, only tempered by the ability to spit that cash out in dividends. When we have dividends we may revisit that.

But in the meantime it's potentially an opportunity for you. If you think the system is undervaluing, you get a cheap stock and even at a lower multiple it will go up when profits bring even more cash in.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:52 am 

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User avatarRonak Holdings I
 
Alright, that explains a lot to me (well, I will pretend that I understood most of it anyway).

Another question that bugs me, is

Won't the stock market pump in more money into the game?

Based upon what the current situation is

I buy a stock, with my own money (though for the event, we have a separate one billion bucks, in real time implementation, we'll probably be using our own money).

When I sell that stock back, at a neat profit of say, $500, over an initial investment of $1000, does that mean that $500 has been pumped into the game?

Not very big when one sees through a lens of $500, but when you repeat that say, over 1billion shares, of 100 different companies, you are pumping in $500 from the air(okay, even retail is pumping money from the air, but you are selling goods worth something to the system, in form of retail).

As it is, in the first couple days, people already have their accounts at 30% over what was the initial allowance.

A change be made(including this event too) that you only get your money back with which you have bought shares, that other people buy those shares. This makes the system more realistic.

Right now, if someones sees that a certain stock is going down, they can just sell it off to the system, and still get away with making a quick buck. If their money is only redeemed when other people buy the stock, then they will be pretty cautious in buying stock, rather than being careless. Ofcourse, cautious, and careless are used relatively.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:15 pm 

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User avatarRonak Holdings I
 
Another concern, regarding cash flow for stock market.

ronak1996 wrote:
Alright, that explains a lot to me (well, I will pretend that I understood most of it anyway).

Another question that bugs me, is

Won't the stock market pump in more money into the game?

Based upon what the current situation is

I buy a stock, with my own money (though for the event, we have a separate one billion bucks, in real time implementation, we'll probably be using our own money).

When I sell that stock back, at a neat profit of say, $500, over an initial investment of $1000, does that mean that $500 has been pumped into the game?

Not very big when one sees through a lens of $500, but when you repeat that say, over 1billion shares, of 100 different companies, you are pumping in $500 from the air(okay, even retail is pumping money from the air, but you are selling goods worth something to the system, in form of retail).

As it is, in the first couple days, people already have their accounts at 30% over what was the initial allowance.

A change be made(including this event too) that you only get your money back with which you have bought shares, that other people buy those shares. This makes the system more realistic.

Right now, if someones sees that a certain stock is going down, they can just sell it off to the system, and still get away with making a quick buck. If their money is only redeemed when other people buy the stock, then they will be pretty cautious in buying stock, rather than being careless. Ofcourse, cautious, and careless are used relatively.



If the quoted function is not enforced(also even if it is enforced), because the aim of stock market is to open up an additional manner, wherein new cash is pumped into the system, a rule is required, that


WILL NOT ALLOW COMPANIES TO BUY SHARES OF THEIR TRADE PARTNERS


If I buy shares of trade partners, and then increase by buying price from them, and sell their shares and then go back to old buying price, it is an abuse of the stock system.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:12 pm 
Developer

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User avatarAllmart
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We may or may not need another event after this.

We knew that someone who had sold tickets would have a leverage effect, but it's a little too big. There's also a little dialing in required on trade reactivity, but overall it's not too bad. On the whole it's a positive that investing in growing businesses is clearly the best strategy and shenanigans don't really hold up.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:07 pm 

Joined: Apr 16, 2017
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The Glass Co.
I am comming a bit late to this discusion but let me just say:

Pump and Dump!

I encourage the Dev to add new things to the game, but please stay away from a simulated stock market! they never work, many developers have tried.

^ the stock market is a bad idea... people are already gaming the stock prices. when the event started a few new companies were just created, rushed to level 8, then sold 'assets' to give them huge cash flow and 1000% rise in stock price!

The reason the stock market works in real life is because if you Pump and Dump you get arrested! good luck enforcing that in game (inside traders)

Also in real life, the stock market is used for new companies to raise capital! will we be able to raise capital/ limit how many shared get sold? etc....

Also iRL you cant just sell stock, you place an offer and someone else has to buy it! this makes pump and dump harder (right now you are selling the stock back to the system, which is always willing to buy and take the loss, please do not let some people to profit from trading against a machine!)

I have a list of reasons why the stock market is a bad idea Dev, Please look at some other game devs (try mobile appstore) and youll notice the shortcoming of a stock trading game (one example that I use: Best Broker by Lang&Schwarz : there are people who have made +36,826,953% profit )

the end of my rant!


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