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 Post subject: Apartment Talk
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:41 am 
Developer

Joined: Feb 8, 2008
Posts: 2888
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User avatarCommit to Excellence
Bellerive Chamber of Commerce
Hey all,

Last year Apartments were introduced, intentionally difficult to profit from because they tend toward a bit passive. Earlier this year we revisited to improve functions and returns. Yet we understand from several of you they are still being outpaced by other building types.

Here is my results from testing:

Rev / SF / day 46.2
Util required for that 5
Util Cost (both) at qa0 0.63
Util Need / sf / day 15
Maint / sf / day 10
Util QA bonus 3.2
Total cost / day 20.962
Profit / sf / day 53.9

/ 100 ft / month 161700
Build cost / 100 ft 450000
Monthly RoA 36%

and we think 36% monthly Return on Assets for a large building is pretty good. Especially since unlike other buildings, Apartments can expand without shutting down. (When considering what you get elsewhere, be sure to divide by how long it spends shut down.)

However, we're understanding of people getting different results in practice. So if you are finding the current returns insufficient, please use this thread to share.

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 Post subject: Re: Apartment Talk
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:24 am 

Joined: Aug 9, 2015
Posts: 17
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Bubba's Production
Finally!! I have roughly 9k apartments between all citys possibly closer to 10k. Either way. I produce my own furnishings so I save money. And I believe on 8k apartments daily I bring in 738m daily. After expenses its 300m. Daily return is 300m on 30 buildings. Which I understand given it's my decision to waist money on apartments I can only complain so much. But any factory or retail store can do that in half the time and half the space that's why we dont have many ppl jumping in to it.

My other big issue. Is I spent 478bil expanding 23 buildings by 125k each. So

Math time
300m return from 31 buildings.
32bil to expand each one
Total profit at 300m a day for 365 days 109bil.. how am I suppose to expand with that kind of profit. A full year and I can expand 3 buildings by 125k


As I think of more I'll post
If anyone is having better luck than I am please let me know

Great day


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 Post subject: Re: Apartment Talk
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:54 am 

Joined: Aug 9, 2015
Posts: 17
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Bubba's Production
Oh and I use a mix to get 63qa electric

One other question both rnds and apartments take money to run them ..why is it we have to put money in both where says add cash.

And yet we get charged a daily maintenance fee for the apartments but not rnds


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 Post subject: Re: Apartment Talk
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:26 pm 

Joined: Jun 2, 2015
Posts: 110
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joker20008
I think I'll give this another go around just to see where things are at. I am hearing there is no money in it (which I agree from my first try, among other things) but on the other hand I am hearing both committed and amarsir thinking there is a lot of potential, maybe too much, after the update a couple months ago.

My main complaint from the first try was it felt like I was trying to hit a moving target in the dark. My understanding was the intent for apartments was to be low key and therefore lower profit, which is fine if it worked that way. But when trying to hit a moving target I found myself working harder for very little return. Example being working rental rate up until tenants left and then lowering rate to last known acceptable rate only to find a day later they left again. Rinse and repeat for 5 days and then quit in frustration as it was proving both high maintenance and low returns. So my pitch to thompson (he doesn't listen well :smile: ) and everyone else in our tg was to avoid them like the plague. I was not alone in that view, many others tried it and felt the same way.

But I will give this another serious try on a couple building slots and see how it goes. Thanks for all your efforts Committed and Amarsir


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 Post subject: Re: Apartment Talk
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:22 am 
Developer

Joined: Feb 8, 2008
Posts: 2046
Location: Climbing up the shoulders of giants
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Every game that offers variation of outcomes has to decide between balancing around ideal play and balancing around easy-to-achieve play. If we balance around simple play, ensuring a good return for casual choices, we have to worry about how abusive the returns would be if maximized. If we balance around ideal play then we're sure the feature won't break the game but we can't guarantee it's a great result for everyone.

Apartments are definitely targeted at the more difficult side, and therefore you will find that the rewards don't really kick in until you get things mostly right. But when they do, they really do.

Which means this harsh truth: if you aren't getting good returns yet, it's probably because you're making some mistakes with them. Now being perfect is unrealistic without us telling you the formulas. (Especially for attributes that require remodeling to try out.) But there's a lot of room between perfect and where you are now.

Quote:
I have roughly 9k apartments between all citys possibly closer to 10k. Either way. I produce my own furnishings so I save money. And I believe on 8k apartments daily I bring in 738m daily.

That's a little vague, but I'm happy to use you as an example Bubba. In Bellerive you have an 800ft apartment building with 150 units.

It looks to me like you spend 37,020 per day in maintenance and utilities. But your rent is only 37,500. Of course there's no profit like that. I am quite confident that rent could be higher.

Right now the profit for the whole building is a measly :beta: 72,000 per day. If I made 3 changes to your setup on that building (hint: not the apartment size) I believe I could increase the profit to :beta: 12,870,000. (In fact just one change would get you most of the way there.) That's enough to keep this building expanding full time and have profit left over.

So what do I do? Do I add even more profit to a system that already has big payoffs if you do it right? Do I tell you exactly what to do and take all the game out of it? Or do I encourage you to keep working at the settings, paying attention to the results and iterating?

This mode is still semi-easy to be honest. If the apartment market fills up with supply, that's when it starts getting harder as the formulas to figure out how many tenants go to each building kick in. Right now the only variable you have to worry about is the city's construction cost multiplier.

My big regret with apartments right now is that they aren't tied into other buildings well enough. I'd like to have something like a company housing bonus where you get better results at your other buildings if you provide enough housing for the city.


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 Post subject: Re: Apartment Talk
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:24 am 
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Thompson17 wrote:
One other question both rnds and apartments take money to run them ..why is it we have to put money in both where says add cash.

And yet we get charged a daily maintenance fee for the apartments but not rnds

What makes you think R&D Centers aren't spending your money? It's accounted differently because it goes into the research they're working on, but both have expenses.


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 Post subject: Re: Apartment Talk
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:54 pm 

Joined: Aug 9, 2015
Posts: 17
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Bubba's Production
Hmm ya that (800) should have bee. higher. Idk why it wasnt. But thanks lol if you say there is more profit we will find it.

My big and request is lower the cost to make them or convert. I've been in game a long time so either I scrap larger buildings and make new ones or convert and it's so expansive to do either that is a big reason I dont have more than I do.


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 Post subject: Re: Apartment Talk
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:56 am 

Joined: Jun 2, 2015
Posts: 110
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joker20008
Committed wrote:
Here is my results from testing:

Rev / SF / day 46.2
Util required for that 5
Util Cost (both) at qa0 0.63
Util Need / sf / day 15
Maint / sf / day 10
Util QA bonus 3.2
Total cost / day 20.962
Profit / sf / day 53.9

/ 100 ft / month 161700
Build cost / 100 ft 450000
Monthly RoA 36%


Was reviewing this example as I am now playing with apartments a little and have actual tenants. Maybe I'm missing something here but how do you get a higher profit than your revenue number?

Again, assuming I'm interpreting this correctly 15 units of water and electric at .63 each is $9.45 not $5. Utilities are indeed $10/ sq ft. Revenue $46.2- $19.45=$26.75 profit. This brings monthly profit down to $80250. 17.8% monthly return on cost of the building.

Where does one secure large quantities of water and electric at that low of a cost? I could see $.90-1.00 (combined) being a bargain most days. If using $1.00 we are at $63600. 14.1% return.

Is the utility qa bonus a dollar figure or a percentage? I guess I disregarded that in this case as qa 0 was used.

Regardless of the above:
This seems very flawed but comparing 700k ft buildings using the metric of build cost per 100 sq ft at normal speed there is 7-9 times the return in factories, farms and stores using your 36% return number. Obviously it's even higher if using the numbers I posted above. Considering any amount of expansion down time even an aggressive plan of 50% expansion it still is an easy choice. The data I gathered used a standard farm, a factory on industrial land, and a megastore on city center land so there are some perks and added costs to the factory and store that I don't have specific numbers on as to how much of a bonus is gained but halve it all again (which should be very extreme, I know we don't double profits using certain land types over others) and one is still looking at 2x the return of your base 36% return on apartments. This alone tells me the cost to expand/convert apartments needs to go down or profit needs to go up to gain interest even for a low involvement operation, factories and farms can be very low involvement.

Perhaps qa bonuses alone on my production/retail is skewing this whole thing badly. I am trying to achieve optimum results in higher tiered areas with my apartments so I am working with the qa end of things in this attempt to make apartments viable. Even so if I can turn the knobs just right and get my profits double from current it's not going to look very good. …my preferred metric to view things is profit per land slot and how does it compare to buying or expanding that specific building type. The cost of an apartment would still fall between stores and factories while the return falls much closer to farms.


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 Post subject: Re: Apartment Talk
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:25 am 

Joined: Jun 2, 2015
Posts: 110
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joker20008
With some more thought today I realize I SHOULD have been comparing my apartment to my other 3 buildings as that is using qa to presumably achieve similar qa bonuses rather than comparing to Committed's qa 0 example.

Here are the results in an easier to understand format

All buildings at 700k ft or close to it. All numbers based on monthly profit vs. cost to build at normal speed

Apartment (Standard) Currently 40% ...will be seeing how far I can improve this but at first glance 80% seems like a stretch. And it will take time as I can't just dump inputs and change them.
Farm (Sandard) 275%
Factory (IC) 295%
Megastore (City Center) 245%

It still shows a huge return to cost issue and that's what keeps most people from being interested.

From Amarsir-Apartments are definitely targeted at the more difficult side, and therefore you will find that the rewards don't really kick in until you get things mostly right. But when they do, they really do.

If this is truly the case then I will gladly spend some time looking for that sweet spot. :smile:


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 Post subject: Re: Apartment Talk
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:29 am 
Developer

Joined: Feb 8, 2008
Posts: 2046
Location: Climbing up the shoulders of giants
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User avatarAllmart
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joker20008 wrote:
Was reviewing this example as I am now playing with apartments a little and have actual tenants. Maybe I'm missing something here but how do you get a higher profit than your revenue number?

It might have been copied wrong. Subtracting costs from revenues gives you 25.2, which works down to 17% RoA. That's about where you are.

Quote:
This seems very flawed but comparing 700k ft buildings using the metric of build cost per 100 sq ft at normal speed there is 7-9 times the return in factories, farms and stores using your 36% return number.
If your factories are returning 3-4x their cost every month, you can figure out how to get utilities for 0.63. :)

Also bear in mind, factories and farms don't pull money from the system into the economy. They can only earn from other players. Stores do, but as the core experience and the first one players interact with, they will always get a little help. Since apartments are generating cash that didn't exist anywhere in the game yet, I'm very wary to pump them up too much. But continued tweaking is fair.


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 Post subject: Re: Apartment Talk
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:59 am 
Developer

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By the way I just went over the math with Bubba on one of his actual apartments in Abalesk and he's getting a monthly return of 104%. Is that really what we consider too low?


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 Post subject: Re: Apartment Talk
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:36 pm 

Joined: Jun 2, 2015
Posts: 110
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joker20008
Amarsir wrote:
By the way I just went over the math with Bubba on one of his actual apartments in Abalesk and he's getting a monthly return of 104%. Is that really what we consider too low?


I am very familiar with bubba's operation. In my mind it's not as pretty as it looks. The difference is his inputs are almost all vertically sourced, mine are bought at wholesale. And yes I am referring to the furnishings too, there is a cost there unless one is chasing the qa0 market, at some point it will have to be replaced.

I really don't know what you expect a fair return to be. The concept of looking at returns based on 1x expansion was an eye opener to me but it's using the same standard across the board so the comparison had value.

As far as .63 utilities, sure I could do that, but it's a waste of building slots and resources. I try to instill the belief that each step has earn it's keep to our member. I'm sure not interested in working for free (tying up slots that add no value)


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 Post subject: Re: Apartment Talk
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:46 pm 

Joined: Jun 2, 2015
Posts: 110
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joker20008
Amarsir wrote:
It might have been copied wrong. Subtracting costs from revenues gives you 25.2, which works down to 17% RoA. That's about where you are.


So you're saying baseline for apartments is 17% now and not 36%?


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 Post subject: Re: Apartment Talk
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:42 pm 

Joined: Aug 9, 2015
Posts: 17
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Bubba's Production
Yes I am at 104% in a few of my apartments as I told joker yesterday that allows me to expand 24k ft a month which isn't alot. But also doesnt allow very much profit.

As far as my furnishing yes I do produce them and I offer them at a price that's fair for those in the apartment business.

Feel free to msg me if that's needed..

I would like to see more profit. Especially if we are expected to expand


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 Post subject: Re: Apartment Talk
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:41 am 

Joined: Aug 9, 2015
Posts: 17
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Bubba's Production
Has anyone had a chance to review the cost yo expand the apartments? I'm wanting to expand but 33bil each is quite a bit
Even at 104% ROA. Lol..

I've gotten my return up to 2bil and climbing 2/3 of my buildings at 104%. But again 2bil daily profit from 20 buildings doesnt quite justify 33bil each on expansion


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