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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:04 am 
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User avatarAllmart
System Company
Aindala wrote:
Let me call the attention to Plastic.

My warehouse costs are of 342 :beta: . Quality is 0. The maximum I can sell is 391 :beta: in invoice.

It's even more ridiculous for the next batch of Plastic. Since I was forced to buy electricity at 4 :beta: and each Plastic takes 30 units of them, the cost raises to 431 :beta: , yet since electricity only accounts for 5% of the quality my extra cost allows me to sell for only 437 :beta: by invoice.


I don't know what the problem is - maybe it's the fact plastic contributes a lot to cost but very little to QA?

Woah!

You're right, you don't need high-quality electricity. It's one of those things we slipped in that we hoped clever players would pick up on. A high quality electricity is useful for precision electronics like CPUs and Circuitry, but not so much for industrial stuff like Plastic. This means there should be a divide between players who want cheap bulk and those who want premium.

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OK let's analyze electricity. I'll assume standard property and flat economy for simplicity. Oil will be QA 0 off the market from Spaz International at β8.00. And the wholesale slider goes up to β0.87 for QA0 oil but I don't want to live at the top of the range so let's say the wholesaler wants to sell for β0.70.

100ft factory (Starting player will always be my baseline, because if you expand into losing money that's your fault.)
β5000 salary
142,000 units per day
.08 materials + .06 labor = β0.14 per electricity

So right off the bat: new players can make β80,000 per factory per day in electricity. Sounds good to me.

1,000,000 ft factory, no research (Well into DMR and without any research to counteract it)
β5000 salary
185 million units per day
.08 materials + .47 = β0.55 per electricity

Obviously the cost went way up. That's Diminishing Marginal Returns. But I said a (non-capped) price of β0.70. So even with one of the hugest factories around, without cutting costs on salaries or leveraging research, someone could sell electricity well within the range and make a profit of β27.75 million per day for this one building.

1,000,000 ft factory, no research (Same factory, different salary)
β1000 salary
134 million units per day
.08 materials + .35 = β0.43 per electricity

This is a profit of β36.18 million per day. Now it's not my intention that you should have to floor all of your salaries. (And it's not ideal as I'll get to.) But it shows another option an electricity producer could proceed.

1,000,000 ft factory, level 50 research set to speed
(Level 50 research is very easy to maintain: a single 50,000 ft R&D will more than cover it.)
β5000 salary
244 million units per day
.08 materials + .36 = β0.44 per electricity

That is a profit of β63.44 million per day for this building. By far the best option of this list.

[i]If curious, that R&D center costs about β57 million per day to run. That still leaves a profit even at just one factory. But obviously you get a better economy of scale by using more than one, since you get to keep all the profits at subsequent electricity factories.

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So I see no reason at all why QA0 electricity can't be available well within the price range, other than that people haven't adapted to do it. Now I can see that being a short-term issue for a plastic manufacturer but I don't think it's a design flaw.

I could put more NPC sellers on the market (as I did with Tier 1 Build kits) at prices that are usable but high enough to be beaten. But only if that's what people want.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

By the way, electricity as a non-warehouse production falls under the category of Service Industry. I'd love to make it a little more unique but it would require a fair chunk of time and a good idea for interesting play.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:43 am 

Joined: Jul 30, 2013
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User avatarRonak Holdings I
 
+1 to amarsir. But what was the basis for the cost of oil? Definitely a raw site of 30 or 40M square feet won't give oil for qa0 at all. will it?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:28 am 
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ronak1996 wrote:
+1 to amarsir. But what was the basis for the cost of oil? Definitely a raw site of 30 or 40M square feet won't give oil for qa0 at all. will it?

  1. Applying research to speed instead of quality is a perfectly viable choice, and the oil driller could do it as well. At 30-40m ft I'd expect research would play some part.
  2. 40m ft is so incredibly huge that I'm not overly worried about their break even. Sounds oversupplied to me.
  3. I just looked at what was already being sold on the market, though checking our own data now I think that 8 is well in the middle of the range.
  4. You'll notice the oil cost was a small part of the total cost: 0.08 out of 0.44 total. If the price of oil doubled to 16 it would only bring that electricity cost up to 0.52, well below the selling price of 0.70. (Which was itself well below the top of the slider.)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:24 pm 
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Joined: Jan 19, 2011
Posts: 4623
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User avatarAindala Holdings
Bottled Water Genius
Amarsir wrote:
So I see no reason at all why QA0 electricity can't be available well within the price range, other than that people haven't adapted to do it. Now I can see that being a short-term issue for a plastic manufacturer but I don't think it's a design flaw.

I could put more NPC sellers on the market (as I did with Tier 1 Build kits) at prices that are usable but high enough to be beaten. But only if that's what people want.

Even if it is available at 0.35 :beta: , (well within the price range), my profit, in invoice, is a meager 50 per unit. Salaries are 5000 or 5000 adjusted, not really a fortune.

I guess then the problem is I'm not using research for plastic with large factories. For me it's not a problem since it's possible for me to compensate that on Bottled Water prices.


By the way, I just noticed that we now have access to the market listings from the invoicing menu :)

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Last edited by Aindala on Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:38 pm 

Joined: Jul 30, 2013
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User avatarRonak Holdings I
 
Possibly 40,000,000 sqft raw site is obscenely large. What about a Trade Group raw materials supplier ?
With having around 10 - 15 mouths to feed with oil, the need to buy high quality extraction tools, keep upping the research so that via the steel - extraction tools - raw's, the quality betterment benefits the raw's again, the costs are too high. In these conditions such a low price isn't affordable.

Just a thought.

Also with higher quality extraction tools, to keep costs as low as possible in sites above 20,000,000 sqft, it is necessary to adjust the price such that maximum amount of raw units are extracted in minimum amount of tools, but invertly is also increases the costs. Also the point of Trade Groups to be existent is " To make players work in a group, co-operate with each other, become more efficient and establish more trade connections" Thus, "many" people making raw materials would be senseless, similarly having many people making steel of various quality would be inefficient and chaotic.
It would make sense that a few persons dedicate themselves to a particular area.

Also for free-lance players making raw materials and putting it on market, they would get a respectable amount of ROI, when their production is large enough, and their costs are low. Large production from small sites can be attained when salaries are high, but since raw sites are usually in the range of 5-15M sqft, raising salaries, won't be much effective, but raising the size of the raw mine will be effective. Thus each free-lance raw maker will be having mostly large sites of the order of 20M or >20M sqft. Only those who believe in self-sufficiency and want a vertical setup will be making raw materials from small sites of ~1-5M sqft and putting whatever small leftovers are there on the market.

The research costs will also not be to laugh off, to maintain multiple level 120+ researches (that is what most raw makers have their researches at) and simultaneously keeping them rising isn't a laughing matter.

Another concept that most players would agree to would be
The Government is into business (Allmart), selling at break-even prices, but high enough that even the largest of players can maintain a ROI of atleast 5-10% (a startup company having a 50-75% ROI is considered ok-ok, but Apple having a ROI of even 5-10% is considered as, "Whoa,it's raining cash"!)

Visibly competition isn't there much in the game. Why not have a NPC as a competitor itself, to control the inflation, instead of putting regulations.

This would be more like socio-capitalist economy(Iceland, Netherlands, Norway), where the government is pro-business, but to control inflation it doesn't make very stringent rules, but itself dabbles into businesses, so that businesses are forced to become more competitive and try to change the dynamics more by managing their entire strategies anew.

would really like to know what other players think about this.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:45 pm 
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Joined: Jan 19, 2011
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User avatarAindala Holdings
Bottled Water Genius
ronak1996 wrote:
This would be more like socio-capitalist economy(Iceland, Netherlands, Norway), where the government is pro-business, but to control inflation it doesn't make very stringent rules, but itself dabbles into businesses, so that businesses are forced to become more competitive and try to change the dynamics more by managing their entire strategies anew.

Usually what countries do to control inflation is not dabbling into businesses, but instead the respective central banks raise their reference interest rates. Taxation is another common weapon in this regard, although politically not very nice. Devs could make a general windfall gains tax, but I think the reaction would be much worse.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:29 pm 

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User avatarRonak Holdings I
 
Windfalls Gains Tax, are not relevant in this time. Neither overpriced lands have been sold. Nor anything else.

*What really happened is that, prices in player base increased thousands folds, but government prices remained same. Had the costs of expansions etc.etc. also increased, inflation wouldn't have been there, only value of currency would be considered de-valuated*


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:33 pm 

Joined: Dec 11, 2013
Posts: 13
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Abbots
Amarsir wrote:
KojiOrphen wrote:
Are the "Recent Market and Invoice Sales" charts being updated?

I haven't seen my sales posted into the chart for Abalesk and I can't invoice for the maximum price given.

Good catch, we were accidentally pulling market trades where we meant to pull invoice ones, meaning the market sales were sold twice and invoices not at all. I just fixed it so you should see considerably more trades now.

However, the chart still excludes outliers which it sounds like yours was.

KojiOrphen wrote:

The maximum price is 104,940.30 and my cost is currently 320k+. (They were bought directly from the manufacturer.)

It's the same way for all of my toys in both Abalesk and Bellerive.

PS: I just tried to sell them back to who I bought them from. The max is 104,339.51! I can't even return them and we're both Platinum!

Yes, we took out the "round trip at the same price" rule specifically because you didn't like it.

You didn't say which product so it's pretty hard for me to look up but I'll assume you mean your Video Game System. Customers expect to pay around β30,000 a day in stores for basic quality. Yours are QA 100 which means 320% percent more. That's β126,000. Let's say brand, your store factors, the competition, the economy, and everything else line up so well that customers will pay double their expected price. That's about β250k. Retail.

How would someone who paid β320,000 wholesale ever make a profit in that environment? I think you might need to take a loss on that inventory and tell your supplier to get his costs down to β50,000.

(Now I know that's not at all what you want to hear. But taking a loss on inventory and pushing your supplier to lower his costs: that sounds like business management to me.)


I'll come ahead and say the manufacturer is me. I'm producing the inputs myself/getting very good deals on them. Yet still, I'm not getting lower than 78k in production costs. There is no way I'm getting to 50k per VGS. Not if I am not to produce all of the inputs myself. I have already lowered the salaries in factories from 120k to 20k. Didn't make the cut.

There is another problem with this change. I've got huge stock of VGS in my warehouses, which I'm now unable to sell at profit for months, just because it was manufactured at higher costs. And we are talking trillions of losses.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:47 pm 

Joined: Dec 14, 2014
Posts: 33
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User avatarSoap & Water
Farmer
Honestly - all the replies that come from veteran and also new players is 80% bad - 20% good. 8 big players stop completly, more will follow soon.

And i feel like talking to a door - I honestly have no feelings for this game no more, all freedom is gone and when you build 50 buildings of 50K size there is nothing left for this game.

After that, the cost and idiot effiency calculation (180K R&D - standard salery - 18% - COME ON).

So lifespan of this game 3-6 months, then you need to move other game

Telling (not saying) you DEVS, and :grrr: listen for once

Make it fun to play! (ex. Let prestige count for something - Trade Group have there closed markets, stuff like that)
Encourage expansion so they benefit from the time used.
There is no innovation just restrictions

Well SPAZ will fuc. up the system anyway - lets see if will get help doing it, you see how the system is failing on Building kits, and more products will soon follow.

This was todays - I AM STILL PISSED AT THE UPDATE - new post each day!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:11 pm 

Joined: Mar 11, 2015
Posts: 307
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User avatarSpaz International
Triple Furniture Expert
Spaz plans on doing all kinds of damage. Because when I do, it will give the smaller to medium players a chance to catch up.

Down with all you 1% er's.

The problem with this game is it is supposed to be a business simulation game to mirror real life economics. Inflation in this game is out of control. People in real life do no pay 1000 for sugar. The updates are going to help bring all pricing down eventually. I just want to help it along.

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Always looking to buy big building, message me in game.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:52 pm 

Joined: Aug 27, 2014
Posts: 78
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User avatarSteel Producers Union
 
johans75 wrote:
Honestly - all the replies that come from veteran and also new players is 80% bad - 20% good. 8 big players stop completly, more will follow soon.

And i feel like talking to a door - I honestly have no feelings for this game no more, all freedom is gone and when you build 50 buildings of 50K size there is nothing left for this game.

After that, the cost and idiot effiency calculation (180K R&D - standard salery - 18% - COME ON).

So lifespan of this game 3-6 months, then you need to move other game

Telling (not saying) you DEVS, and :grrr: listen for once

Make it fun to play! (ex. Let prestige count for something - Trade Group have there closed markets, stuff like that)
Encourage expansion so they benefit from the time used.
There is no innovation just restrictions

Well SPAZ will fuc. up the system anyway - lets see if will get help doing it, you see how the system is failing on Building kits, and more products will soon follow.

This was todays - I AM STILL PISSED AT THE UPDATE - new post each day!


I think things will look less bleak once the cheaper items start getting supplied to the market. It takes time to burn off the trillions of materials people have sitting in their warehouses and input prices begin to fall. Since I started this game I set out to do 2 things make steel based goods as cheap as possible and get charity awards. First goal was way too easy. I could sell overpriced steel and still be the cheapest. The second one was much more difficult. There are some goods that no one touches people clumped to the boost products and let the city go to waste. Now I think with the Wholesale and retail changes people who do like competition killing prices will go to other markets getting the economies back on track instead of just limping along.

I don't think prestige count for anything and if it did It would be .0001% increase in sales prices for each prestige. Something small for those of us with tons of prestige don't have an unfair advantage.

I actually wish for a more open market with people more willing to put their goods out there and see what would sell. I don't think a small TG can have a closed market and needs to supply or get supplied from the outside.

SPAZ will not mess up the system. No matter how much anyone thinks he will.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:31 pm 

Joined: Dec 14, 2014
Posts: 33
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User avatarSoap & Water
Farmer
tspaz78 wrote:
Spaz plans on doing all kinds of damage. Because when I do, it will give the smaller to medium players a chance to catch up.

Down with all you 1% er's.

The problem with this game is it is supposed to be a business simulation game to mirror real life economics. Inflation in this game is out of control. People in real life do no pay 1000 for sugar. The updates are going to help bring all pricing down eventually. I just want to help it along.


Nothing makes sense what you just wrote, but never mind - fiction money, fiction prices - is still a game!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:58 am 

Joined: Oct 7, 2015
Posts: 51
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Usa Force
This is by FAR THE WORST idea Simunomics has ever created. I mean, it is a well known fact that the MAJORITY of players don't cheat, why should we be punished for something a few people have done. In addition, what happened to supply and demand? And what gifting are they talking about? There has been no such "gifting" reported. The game made up those false stories to fear monger people into this. This totally ruined the game, PLEASE REVERSE IT. I WILL BUY SIMUNOMICS, to have it reversed.


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