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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:05 am 

Joined: Nov 29, 2014
Posts: 33
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User avatarUbermacht Ltd
Bug Swatter
johans75 wrote:
Committed wrote:
I'll look into you right now SimJim, thanks.

---------------

Soap & Water, thank you for the screenshots. Allow me to walk you through this one.

Image

Union One is a Standard account. (Not gold.)
Union One has logged in from the same IP as you at least once recently.
Union One has SOLD ice cream from other players and now they're going to be buying it from you.

So as far as the system sees, Union One is a free account who sells Ice Cream and then somehow the Ice Cream comes back to him at a different price through a mysterious account on the same IP Address. That is the definition of round-trip cheating.

Now please understand that I am not saying that either you or Union One are cheating or have done anything wrong. I'll pass your case on to Amarsir to see if he wants to change the algorithm. However your behavior is very similar to what someone would do if they were trying to cheat. And we have for a definite certainty banned players from the game for doing just that that sort of round trip.

So to save you from being banned the system locked you in at a price that wouldn't be an advantage to you or Union One. You don't like the price. That's exactly why it was picked: because you should not be passing products to someone else who's just going to pass them on again at a different price. Especially on the same IP.

Now again, I'll ask Amarsir if this is how he really wants it to work. We may change it. But please understand that there's a very specific reason you got that price.


This concept is used for Rebranding and has nothing to do about cheating - also the price has widen within the last hour, so it can be sold at an acceptable pricing.
But still thinks that pricelimit is wrong and you are holding the game back.
Actually what you were doing before this update was breaking the rules. As the devs have clearly said that you may only trade between your accounts if both are either gold or platinum. So what you were doing was cheating.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:48 am 

Joined: Dec 14, 2014
Posts: 33
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User avatarSoap & Water
Farmer
Ubermacht wrote:
johans75 wrote:
Committed wrote:
I'll look into you right now SimJim, thanks.

---------------

Soap & Water, thank you for the screenshots. Allow me to walk you through this one.

Image

Union One is a Standard account. (Not gold.)
Union One has logged in from the same IP as you at least once recently.
Union One has SOLD ice cream from other players and now they're going to be buying it from you.

So as far as the system sees, Union One is a free account who sells Ice Cream and then somehow the Ice Cream comes back to him at a different price through a mysterious account on the same IP Address. That is the definition of round-trip cheating.

Now please understand that I am not saying that either you or Union One are cheating or have done anything wrong. I'll pass your case on to Amarsir to see if he wants to change the algorithm. However your behavior is very similar to what someone would do if they were trying to cheat. And we have for a definite certainty banned players from the game for doing just that that sort of round trip.

So to save you from being banned the system locked you in at a price that wouldn't be an advantage to you or Union One. You don't like the price. That's exactly why it was picked: because you should not be passing products to someone else who's just going to pass them on again at a different price. Especially on the same IP.

Now again, I'll ask Amarsir if this is how he really wants it to work. We may change it. But please understand that there's a very specific reason you got that price.


This concept is used for Rebranding and has nothing to do about cheating - also the price has widen within the last hour, so it can be sold at an acceptable pricing.
But still thinks that pricelimit is wrong and you are holding the game back.
Actually what you were doing before this update was breaking the rules. As the devs have clearly said that you may only trade between your accounts if both are either gold or platinum. So what you were doing was cheating.


Uber - do not point fingers when your hands are dirty yourself (MaskPunch Ltd).

But anyway - could we with this update have the chance to improve the TG experience, instead of pushing to "I make everything myself" policy. As it is not in any interest to shortcut any account.
Make the game interesting instead of forcing "God Complex" onto player. There is a reason why WoW is stll there after over 10 year.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:19 am 

Joined: Jul 30, 2013
Posts: 608
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User avatarRonak Holdings I
 
Where is Vaculus. You need to perform your duties.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:33 am 

Joined: Jul 30, 2013
Posts: 608
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User avatarRonak Holdings I
 
Image

I try to sell to The Godfather.

Neither do I sell to the same IP address, even if I would do, both are gold.

Then too i can't, and loose approximately around 5k bucks (NOTE - not loosing profit, but making a LOSS) per unit.

Please explain.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:53 pm 

Joined: Aug 28, 2009
Posts: 1123
Location: Qo'noS
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User avatarCorban Industries
Bug Swatter
ronak1996 wrote:

I try to sell to The Godfather.

Neither do I sell to the same IP address, even if I would do, both are gold.

Then too i can't, and loose approximately around 5k bucks (NOTE - not loosing profit, but making a LOSS) per unit.

Please explain.



Did you read the update?

You should know there are floors and ceilings now.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:03 pm 

Joined: Nov 29, 2014
Posts: 33
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User avatarUbermacht Ltd
Bug Swatter
Quote:
Uber - do not point fingers when your hands are dirty yourself (MaskPunch Ltd).

But anyway - could we with this update have the chance to improve the TG experience, instead of pushing to "I make everything myself" policy. As it is not in any interest to shortcut any account.
Make the game interesting instead of forcing "God Complex" onto player. There is a reason why WoW is stll there after over 10 year.
No my hands are clean. I got a second account yes which is allowed but I have never traded with ubermacht and mask until today which was legal as it is legal trading after this update.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:07 pm 

Joined: Jul 30, 2013
Posts: 608
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User avatarRonak Holdings I
 
but no in the case of build kits. Various persons have reported that they can sell at various limits.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:09 pm 

Joined: Aug 27, 2014
Posts: 78
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User avatarSteel Producers Union
 
A few questions about reselling and merging of Stacks. When this update started I had an old stack of Etool that I bought and merged them with a larger stack of Etools that I produced. When I tried to sell it I was only able to sell for a small profit. This brings up a couple questions.

Does say owning 1000 Bought items form x seller and then merging 100k of your own product.

Will the sales price be limited to the WH costs for entire stack? I.E. I sell 1000 then I sell the remaining 100k. Will both have required resale prices or will the second stack return to the original sales band?

If I keep adding to this stack without selling out. IE I use and sell but keep producing and adding to it. Will it always be limited to Resale prices?

Last thing is about Rebranding.

If I sell a retail product to another company and they rebrand it to their brand will they be able to recoup their expense and make a small profit if they sell it back to me?

Or will they be limited to resale prices when they sell it to another player?

In this same case. Player 1 buys from player 2,3, and 4 combines all the product under 1 brand. Will they be limited to resale prices?

That is all for now. I think.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:56 pm 

Joined: Feb 27, 2011
Posts: 547
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User avatarGold Star Assets
Corporate Yacht (40 ft)
Corban industries wrote:
Btw i just wanted to mention that everyone needs to come down a bit and step back. Your all getting cheaper inputs and that will lower your production costs. It's going to take a few months for users to move old inventories and burn thru the old pricing.

With in 6 months production prices will normalize and everyone will be making profits. Tickets will be coming down in price also.

Retail earnings will also be coming down with the future updates that will rain them in from saturating the markets and over pricing retailed goods.

All in all we knew this was coming and need as CEOs of our companies to best profit from this situation. I for one am not leaving manufacturing business but am expanding in it right now. I see a bright new future that has new and different opportunities.

And if you had not guessed. Imu prices will be updating.

-corban industries
IMU Founder



Ya. I (hope) don't think it will take 6 months for most of the past products/prices to work thru. Perhaps two weeks...

Corban industries wrote:
ronak1996 wrote:

I try to sell to The Godfather.

Neither do I sell to the same IP address, even if I would do, both are gold.

Then too i can't, and loose approximately around 5k bucks (NOTE - not loosing profit, but making a LOSS) per unit.

Please explain.



Did you read the update?

You should know there are floors and ceilings now.



So that explains all the bumped heads and skinned knees...

ronak1996 wrote:
Where is Vaculus. You need to perform your duties.


Haven't heard from Vac in a while... perhaps he's on holiday.

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Independent
Merchant


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:48 pm 

Joined: Dec 14, 2014
Posts: 33
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User avatarSoap & Water
Farmer
[quote="Amarsir"]

Look at this graph from the headline:

Image

So did some calculation from the graph.

Let say Top is 1000 and low is 1 - gving you a middle of 500
Now with the new algo top is Top is 750 and low is 250 (middle 500) - we then trade a lot (Not to go into to much detail) and the algo now moves TOP to 700 and Low to 200 (middle is now 450).

Is it then correct if all trades are done at 700 that the Top will move to ex. 800 or will it stay at 700????


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:13 pm 

Joined: May 18, 2014
Posts: 55
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User avatarBE Corporation
 
Doubt:
The discussion ‘This is a big problem’ started about 15 days ago from Amarsir seemed to indicate that there was a big problem with the fact that prices are not proportional to the quality. While from the paragraph 'why the change' seems that the changes have not been made to solve this problem but to help new players and avoid illegal behavior.
Shortly, I expected that these changes had impact on the problem highlighted by Amarsir but now I find the following situation:

Image

I have a product whose quality exceeds quality of all recent transactions(my circuitry sold for 10900) but I'm forced to sell at a lower price. Not by much, just because the maximum price has recently changed.
So The opposite effect is obtained unless the price of every future transactions falls.
But I m not very confident because the limit to the max price is so variable that circuitry of minor quality could be sold at a very similar price of higher qa circuitry, just in different time of day.

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BE Corporation


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:02 pm 

Joined: Aug 28, 2009
Posts: 1123
Location: Qo'noS
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User avatarCorban Industries
Bug Swatter
the only thing i think that should be changed. is that we should have a should not be using a linear sales average in our formula. since rl and in the game to get higher q things get a lot harder. we should be using a exponential trendline for sales. and from that have a standard deviation off of the average mean to set our prices.

this would give you a control for outliers but also not break the system when we get very large. at what rate that trendline grows is a whole different story based off the costs.

though linear has its own inherit problems also.

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Local Tech Repair We do computer security research and help those protect them self and learn how blackhats work.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:43 pm 

Joined: Nov 12, 2014
Posts: 148
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User avatarQuilogy Inc.
Decorative Tree
For starters, I'm going to come right out and say that the update is a double-edged sword from my perspective. Good points, bad points, yadda yadda.

Whoever didn't like the orange and black interface merely suffers from bad taste, as I totally liked the "men at work" motif. (I'm a big fan of the aesthetic touches in this game. Very quirky and cool) The stoplights for sales are great, the stats seem to be updating more often (unless I'm hallucinating), retail still seems like its going to work well, and holy crap, I love all of this activity from everyone. That's my favorite part. It's really neat being a part of this evolutionary process, whether I like it or not. This is a new experience for me, and it's exciting.

That being said, it seems as though the current state of affairs is drastically skewed against manufacturers. I see a vertically integrated hybrid of manufacturing and retail having the easiest time with these changes, while a dedicated manufacturer seems to be hit hard. I'll use handbags to illustrate this point, as I make very few of them and am not worried about the whole world knowing.

I can make a handbag for fairly cheap, assuming I pay my workers mininum wages, however, with retail prices being semi-inflated, wages have been reasonable in my factories. Just to take a round number, say it costs me 21K to make a handbag. Keeping the numbers round, my handbag is 30 points higher than the average in C, which retails for around 889K. However, I can sell this handbag on the market at a maximum of 45K, and by invoice, even to a Platinum player, it maxes out just over 34K. I'm just wondering why a manufacturer would only be entitled to 4% of the final cut of a product. Doesn't seem very entrepreneurial to settle for an amount so small.

Whether or not it should be the case, ideally, I feel like the playerbase uses average retail prices to help determine what a product is worth. And it makes sense, as Sony doesn't make game consoles to make stores rich, they do it to make Sony rich. And it works, just as one example. In my opinion, the balance was tilted in favor of retailers over producers prior to the update, (not saying it was bad, necessarily, just stating opinion) and I feel like the update merely exacerbates this. Not saying there shouldn't be limits of some sort, as I think the case has been clearly made for them. Just saying there should be some sort of correlation between retail prices and manufacturing profits. I feel like if you clear that problem up, people will be less irate about things changing.

Either way, I'm still here. It's still a good game. It's nice to see the developers listening to feedback and all of that stuff. We're like a big dysfunctional family. :smile:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:32 am 

Joined: Jan 25, 2015
Posts: 275
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User avatarLalo Companies I
Manufacturer
Devs please read this
http://forums.simunomics.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9711

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:43 pm 

Joined: Sep 2, 2014
Posts: 8
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User avatarKojiOrphen Sake
Retailer
Are the "Recent Market and Invoice Sales" charts being updated?

I haven't seen my sales posted into the chart for Abalesk and I can't invoice for the maximum price given.

The maximum price is 104,940.30 and my cost is currently 320k+. (They were bought directly from the manufacturer.)

It's the same way for all of my toys in both Abalesk and Bellerive.

Thanks,
Koji


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