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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:59 pm 

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swimmer wrote:
i have done the same a Vaculus, so i am currently half retailer half producer.
retailers no longer have the edge in the game, as i find i could make much more at just selling my clothing then selling IMU prices products in my stores.
though i sell my own products and my own producers follow my own pricing since IMU prices just are not profitable even close to the levels on producing the products i am in.


I do not understand the comment about how "IMU prices just are not profitable". They are profitable for both producers (with even moderate levels of research and using high QA inputs to production) and for retailers (as long as quality is above level 20 for the products being sold). I fail to see how IMU prices are too high for retailers (they are not) or too low for producers (they are not). Anyone who reads the forums should know that IMU and I had a strong disagreement about prices and where they should be headed. We still do not agree on all aspects of pricing, and we have some differences in our respective price lists for some products. Even so, for factory goods sold in stores, the difference between the prices being offered by me and Sunshine, both pure retailers, and the IMU official published prices is less than 5% difference for most products. Although I am not ready to give in an say that IMU is right and I am wrong in pricing policies, we are closer together than we were in September, and I do not think IMU prices as listed currently are in any way unreasonable or unfair to either producers or retailers (although they may be unfair to farmers due to being too low).


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:07 pm 

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APCE Production wrote:
Also, keep in mind that most of the top rankings are based fairly significantly on older systems that used to be in place. Most of my wealth was made prior to IMU, prior to manufacturers taking a stand and getting prices that frankly yield significantly higher ROIs for manufacturers than for retailers.


APCE has made this argument before, saying that producers can make higher profits with IMU prices than retailers can. Frankly, I am skeptical about this assertion. I know that I am making a lot of money from selling in stores. I believe that I am making more profits in retail selling than the best producers are. However, I am getting concerned about the number of level 160 researches that have been recently announced. I know I will make a lot of money as a retailer selling products made with level 160 research, but I suspect that producers at that level of research will be making higher profits than are retailers.

APCE Production wrote:
Positive economies are positive for retailers, negative economies are positive for manufacturers. 0 is equal for everyone. Retailers don't like 0 economies either. Don't try to say that a 0 economy favors retailers, it really does not. I actually prefer to expand through 0 economy, because the profitability isn't there in stores.


:agree: I prefer to expand stores and stop selling if the economy is at or close to zero.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:36 am 

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User avatarAPCE Production
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Professor wrote:
APCE Production wrote:
Also, keep in mind that most of the top rankings are based fairly significantly on older systems that used to be in place. Most of my wealth was made prior to IMU, prior to manufacturers taking a stand and getting prices that frankly yield significantly higher ROIs for manufacturers than for retailers.


APCE has made this argument before, saying that producers can make higher profits with IMU prices than retailers can. Frankly, I am skeptical about this assertion. I know that I am making a lot of money from selling in stores. I believe that I am making more profits in retail selling than the best producers are. However, I am getting concerned about the number of level 160 researches that have been recently announced. I know I will make a lot of money as a retailer selling products made with level 160 research, but I suspect that producers at that level of research will be making higher profits than are retailers.

APCE Production wrote:
Positive economies are positive for retailers, negative economies are positive for manufacturers. 0 is equal for everyone. Retailers don't like 0 economies either. Don't try to say that a 0 economy favors retailers, it really does not. I actually prefer to expand through 0 economy, because the profitability isn't there in stores.


:agree: I prefer to expand stores and stop selling if the economy is at or close to zero.


The assumption that drives my assertion that large manufacturers make more ROI than large retailers is that they will use a large ratio of factories to R&D, and that eventually R&D will stabilize that the maximum level that can be afforded by that size of R&D center. With a 16:4 factory:R&D ratio, the R&D centers don't have to be that large to maintain a qa160 R&D, at least in relative size compared to most buildings in the game as of current. A 250kft2 R&D center produces about 12000 work hours per day. 48,000 work hours per day is enough to maintain r120. Large R&D centers should be paying more in salary also, so realistically you can get much higher than that, and still have relatively cheap and very very high quality R&D. Of course, it does take a long time to get to r120 with 4 250kft2 R&D centers, but once you are there, and established, the profits role in like crazy, even faster than a retailer with equivalent investment in his company (because 80 250kft2 factories and 20 250kft2 R&D centers are only worth as much as 100 175kft2 megastores on suburban stripmall).

APCE

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:47 am 

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APCE Production wrote:

Positive economies are positive for retailers, negative economies are positive for manufacturers. 0 is equal for everyone. Retailers don't like 0 economies either. Don't try to say that a 0 economy favors retailers, it really does not. I actually prefer to expand through 0 economy, because the profitability isn't there in stores.

APCE


I'm personnally very pleased with been a producer but I would like to point out that I think economic cycles benefit retailers more than producers since you obviously sell when economic is good and expand when economic is 0 or negative. But for producers higher profit come when economy is bad but that is also the best time to expand and profit is lower when economy is booming but that ain't time to expand since prices are sky high so you have to make decision between 2 great options when economy is bad as opposed to obvious choices for retailers.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:56 am 

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I also started as a manufacturer :D Most of my wealth came from that then I started to buy stores and selling factories.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:46 am 

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islas896 wrote:
I also started as a manufacturer :D Most of my wealth came from that then I started to buy stores and selling factories.


I started as a manufacturer, but most of my wealth early in the game came from building large stores for Habars and large factories for Winners. I was selling all the products that I could make to other players, especially Habars, just to get enough cash flow to keep expansions going to make huge stores for Habars. It was really hard to do, but very profitable.

When I switched to retailing, long ago, my profits jumped up fast. In the days before IMU, factory products were much cheaper to buy, and retailers made at least twice as much profit per day as did manufacturers in the game. Now, I think retailers still make more profit, but the return on investment is not a lot higher from stores. Profit per day per sq ft is higher for stores, but investment required is also higher, and profit with high level research is certainly impressive for producers now. I prefer being a retailer, but I definitely can see that with IMU helping to keep prices high for factory products, the profits from being a producer are not much different from profits from being a retailer if you are large and successful in either role. Both producers and retailers now have a reasonable chance to make decent money. However, I definitely agree that retailers earn more prestige from nice awards, which is an incentive to become a retailer.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:24 pm 

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cumulo007 wrote:
APCE Production wrote:

Positive economies are positive for retailers, negative economies are positive for manufacturers. 0 is equal for everyone. Retailers don't like 0 economies either. Don't try to say that a 0 economy favors retailers, it really does not. I actually prefer to expand through 0 economy, because the profitability isn't there in stores.

APCE


I'm personnally very pleased with been a producer but I would like to point out that I think economic cycles benefit retailers more than producers since you obviously sell when economic is good and expand when economic is 0 or negative. But for producers higher profit come when economy is bad but that is also the best time to expand and profit is lower when economy is booming but that ain't time to expand since prices are sky high so you have to make decision between 2 great options when economy is bad as opposed to obvious choices for retailers.


This is something I definitely agree with, but haven't really looked into. Retailers can benefit through all economies, at 100% profitability. Sure, we manufacturers can expand during negative economies but that's also when your profits leap. Retailers are always confident through every economy cause they know exactly what they're going to do at any particular economy.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:21 pm 

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WOW Industries wrote:
cumulo007 wrote:
APCE Production wrote:

Positive economies are positive for retailers, negative economies are positive for manufacturers. 0 is equal for everyone. Retailers don't like 0 economies either. Don't try to say that a 0 economy favors retailers, it really does not. I actually prefer to expand through 0 economy, because the profitability isn't there in stores.

APCE


I'm personnally very pleased with been a producer but I would like to point out that I think economic cycles benefit retailers more than producers since you obviously sell when economic is good and expand when economic is 0 or negative. But for producers higher profit come when economy is bad but that is also the best time to expand and profit is lower when economy is booming but that ain't time to expand since prices are sky high so you have to make decision between 2 great options when economy is bad as opposed to obvious choices for retailers.


This is something I definitely agree with, but haven't really looked into. Retailers can benefit through all economies, at 100% profitability. Sure, we manufacturers can expand during negative economies but that's also when your profits leap. Retailers are always confident through every economy cause they know exactly what they're going to do at any particular economy.


Manufacturer profits leap during a recession if they can get retailers to buy products then, but since many stores are expanding during a negative economy, it might be hard to find buyers after a while. Thus, it might actually be a smart time to expand factories as well as stores, as you otherwise end up with overstocked retailers who stop buying, as has recently happened in the game.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:17 pm 

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Professor wrote:
Manufacturer profits leap during a recession if they can get retailers to buy products then, but since many stores are expanding during a negative economy, it might be hard to find buyers after a while. Thus, it might actually be a smart time to expand factories as well as stores, as you otherwise end up with overstocked retailers who stop buying, as has recently happened in the game.


So basically it is more common that manufacturers never enjoy peak profit like retailers do during positive economies.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:31 pm 

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WOW, that depends how you run your business you can just expand whenever you want, at a very low economy there are still retailers and you can enjoy the profits then or even better if your QA is high enough to stock up on cheap products especially if you are making building materials. (which will sell like no tomorrow during low economies) so producers can make a killing during certain times if they run their business in a smart way. Retailers can be at the mercy of the economy but as a producer take advantage and get consistent income through the economies just pay a little more for one but sell faster or get cheaper and harder to sell but killer profits.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:00 am 

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Agreed. Building materials can be extremely profitable during weak economies. Sometimes they sell for as much as three times the "cost based" pricing that IMU suggests for QA0 products in the building materials category.

Especially for a young company, producing and selling building materials is ideal because quality does not matter, and there is always depend at some price and sometimes demand at high prices for building materials supplies.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:40 am 

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User avatarJohn's Manufacturing
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:bump2: Can we be updated our Dominance Awards for producers are going ?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:58 am 

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:bump2: WOW Its been over a year and we still don't have any awards for producers. May I ask when will we have awards for producers?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:31 pm 

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Never

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Sinne Fianna Fail
A ta fe gheall ag Eirinn,
buion dar slua
Thar toinn do rainig chugainn,
Fe mhoid bheith saor.
Sean tir ar sinsir feasta
Ni fhagfar fe'n tioran na fe'n trail
Anocht a theam sa bhearna bhaoil,
Le gean ar Ghaeil chun bais no saoil
Le guna screach fe lamhach na bpilear
Seo libh canaidh Amhran na bhFiann.


An economist is an expert who will know tomorrow why the things he predicted yesterday didn't happen today.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:13 am 

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Benix wrote:
Never


:cry:


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